Tuesday, December 13, 2011

"Give Up Already!"

If you're even remotely connected to the ARTS/MOBA community you will know that DotA2 beta is in full swing with more and more invites being sent out daily. I myself have been lucky enough to receive one of these invites and I've already played several games over the course of the last few days and weeks. As somebody who started with DotA before he switched to HoN- and as somebody who has, in his lifetime, definitely played more DotA than HoN, I was (and still am) naturally excited about DotA2. From the start, there have been aspects of the game (and the company, Valve) I dislike. Nevertheless, the positive aspects of the game far outshine my petty grievances and I've already started playing the game actively alongside Heroes of Newerth.

Despite my inherent love for DotA2, I can't help but feel like a lot of the features are still missing. And obviously, this isn't surprising- because the game is in Beta. When Heroes of Newerth came out, it brought about a lot of changes that DotA players had longed for that were simply not feasible on the Warcraft 3 engine. One of these options is the concede vote, which is currently a hot topic in the DotA2 community, as people aren't seeing eye to eye.

For me, this is a non issue. The game should definitely have a concede vote- the question is simply: should it be the same as the one in HoN? As you may know, players in HoN require a unanimous vote to concede until the 30 minute mark, at which point only four players are required to pass the vote. This is definitely debatable, and I don't carry any distaste for anybody who has a differing opinion, because after all, there are pros and cons on both side of the table.

What I don't understand, however, are people who believe DotA2 should simply not have a concede vote. These so called "brave" people argue that, should DotA2 have a concede vote (even if it is only a unanimous vote), it will turn the entire community into "quitters". DotA hotshot and Glenn-Beck-of-the-DotA-Community Maelk wrote an article a few days ago promoting the idea that DotA2 doesn't need a concede option at all. To nobody's surprise, he blames LoL and HoN players for coming up with these silly ideas for features- after all, how could a glorious DotA purist come up with such a retarded idea? He would know, he's never played anything else besides DotA.

HoN and LoL players in DotA2? We need to build a wall!

I find this way of thinking hilarious, not simply because I disagree with it entirely but because it doesn't actually make any sense whatsoever. What Maelk is saying in this article is that, if five people unanimously agree that they want to stop playing a video game, they shouldn't be able to, because he knows what they want better than they themselves do. Proponents of this way of thinking argue that often players will have given up a game that is not quite lost yet.

To this point, I present a rebuttle: who cares? If five players want to give up, let them. It's a unanimous vote, the entire idea of such a vote excludes the situation of one player being on the team who doesn't want to give up. If the entire team wants to give up, who are you to tell them differently? Statistically speaking, who is in a better position to tell a team of five people that their game can still be won: The players themselves who have been playing the game for several minutes, or... some random guy on a forum? I'll go with the five guys who want to give up.

Ironically, Maelk backs up his argument saying "Most players will try harder from the get-go and are less inclined to flame and piss off their allies"- a statement I find hilarious considering a group of players who don't want to play anymore seem more likely to, you know, fuck around than a team that has already counted their losses and moved on. He also writes that he believes that the inability to concede will cause players to become better at the game, because they will have more time to sit and mope around thinking about what they've done. This seems like a silly argument to me, as I would argue playing more games equals gaining more experience and having more wisdom under your belt. He's essentially arguing that since you are "punished more" by having to sit around and waste your time, you're going to play better. Right- because I'm not actually always playing my best, I need a "time out" to bring me back in line?

"Maybe Dagon on Dazzle isn't the ideal build..."

To me, these "pros" of a lack of a concede feature are non-existant. And what's more, I haven't even started talking about why not having a concede vote doesn't even make sense in itself. DotA2 will always have a "concede vote"- its the part of the game where I sit in the fountain and AFK because the game is over. What people don't seem to realize is that DotA1 had a concede vote all along- it was the big shiny "disconnect" button that had no consequence. If I wanted to leave a game, a game which I saw as a waste of time, I could do so at any time with no problems. Banlist wasn't an effective way to stop leavers, as anyone could simply host their own game and it would always fill.

As it currently stands, DotA2 has a concede option- the ability to sit in the fountain. The only difference this makes is that the 5 players sitting in the fountain are wasting their fucking time, something Maelk seems to think everyone has plenty of. A player AFKing cannot play another game of DotA2, he must first wait for it to end, something which does not happen automatically, and in actuality hangs much in the hands of your opponents who are often all too happy to farm up for another half an hour just to spite you.

Even if DotA2 implemented an anti-AFK and a Report-a-Player option (hey look, HoN features!) into the game, do you really think people would continue to fight with all they've got until the "bitter end"? I doubt it. DotA2 is ripe with fresh and creative ways to troll your team while still walking the line of "not rule breaking".

But really, now we're just wading off into hypothetical territory; there is no excuse for not having a unanimous concede vote in DotA2. If the entire team wants to forfeit for whatever reason, they should be able to do so- it was their idea to start the game in the first place and if they all want to stop, they should be able to. A unanimous vote means that there would never be a situation where one player wants to keep fighting but is forced to quit; it would simply mean that the team doesn't want to fight anymore. The enemy team would still win, and that's that.


  1. Stop using common sense. People for some reason refuse to accept that dota can be improved. If vote concede is NOT introduced many of us will stick with HoN as our main game.

  2. There is a concede option. It's called leaving. Then the people that like to quit before a game is over don't have to waste their time, and can play with other people who also don't like to waste time. Eventually you quitters can all play together and have your own matchmaking system full of games that never end with a throne destruction. Don't want to wait for the game to end because nobody on your team bought a crow/wards? Just leave, hopefully next game your teammates wont repeat the same mistake! And if they do, just quit again and again until you get a good game!

    But of course nobody wants to play with quitters on the other team, they just want to be able to quit themselves when THEY lose.

  3. For what I see. Looks that DotA players just want a DotA2 with new grafics, when it should be a impruve of the old age game.

  4. Quick question: Do you feel that the 15-minute mark is necessary? The mark before you can't surrender not even as 5.


    Don't many, many HoN games end at exactly 15 minutes?


    Looking at this, most of the games end at 15-17 minutes, just after the 15-minute mark.

    What about setting that higher or lower? It will affect the quality of the games, won't it? If that mark was 5m, many games would end a bit after first blood.

  5. Dota 2 already has a Report-a-Player option and even in Dota (1) there already is an anti-AFK system. Even though I agree with you that not adding a concede vote is pretty stupid, you should stop blaming Maelk for being a Dota purist while you're glorifying HoN (common issue - everyone thinks the game he's playing or is best at is the superior game, or at least is defending it/overstating its strenghts/degrading its weaknesses).
    Also (and this is pretty much unrelated to your rant about maelks post), it's quite funny how many people are thinking that Dota is short on new features. As Icefrog and Valve stated countless times, it was always the plan to finish porting Dota (1) to the new engine with all its heroes before new content and features are added. And there is no doubt that this is the right way, because it ensures that there are no unnecessary barriers for oldschool Dota players to make the switch to Dota2, something that is very much needed, considering how gamechanging even small changes in gameplay and balance are. It's already hard enough to adapt to the new engine/graphics/mechanics, no need to annoy people with even more changes at the beginning. Icefrog has never made any changes to Dota that didn't improve the game in the long run and he's made those changes at the right pace, so that competetive and casual gamers alike were satisfied. He has always done what is best for the game and he will continue doing it, the new stuff is just not added yet, because - you know it- it's not yet time for it, finishing all the heroes is top priority.
    Icefrog has made Dota what it is today - an uprising new genre, and it's not unlikely that LoL and HoN would never have existed without his ability to form a Warcraft 3 custommap into the game millions of people enjoy and play to no end. You may like HoN and LoL more than Dota or even Dota 2, but give Icefrog the respect and trust he deserves. He knows what he is doing.

  6. You fail to adress one of the main arguments the malek mentioned in his article, which is "having concede vote breeds bad habits", or in other words if there is a quick way to quit the game there is no incentive for players to work and improve the playstyle and induce a shit of persepctive that this is a teamgame and not indiviudal carryfest.

    What Valve is trying to do is to remove the problem of bad games at a fundamental level, of course right now it is painful but it will get easier.

  7. This isn't necessarily some DotA purist thing, and I find it quite annoying that you are looking at it that way. A lot ofpeople in the HoN community would rather want the concede function to be removed.

    The problem is not HoN or LoL players, the problem is people with defeatist attitudes, these people are the kind of people that left on firstblood in DotA.

    Everybody knows that a lot of conceded HoN games are definitely NOT OVER. But if everyone keeps thinking it's over, well then they aren't going to do anything about it. Sure some games might be over 15 minutes before the ancient falls, but a concede option will make sure that games are over 20-30 minutes before they should be over.

    I'd say concede is the most abused function in HoN and the only reason they should keep it in is because of all the people that are smurfing.

  8. Nigma you are really stupid. Dota 2 already has an afk feature (afk 5 minutes= abandoned) and a report a player feature (click on players name and report for text or voice abuse, speech abuse, and skill abuse). In fact, you can commend players as well. HoN has been doing nothing but copying every idea of Dota 2.

  9. Concede is great when it's unanimous, but when it's 4/5 votes, that one guy is going to be flamed hard. Obviously, it sucks when one guy just won't give up, but why should his game be forced to end because of this feature? Maybe he'll turn it around, or even another player might.

  10. Concede removes the thing that i enjoy the most in a MOBA game, the comebacks. The part where teamplay is more important then farm. Where a single ward can prevent a gank and whipe out the enemy. We all know that after a 35-40min game even if u dont have any farm 3-4 players can ez-mode get tower+rax in 30-40seconds.
    There is no such thing as leaver in hon. 5% DC is way to much for a game that has players with 1000+ matches. The report a player is a joke. Out of 10reports i barely get a response to one. Hon is a teamgame and is a game that can end simply because one jackass gives up the game. It doesnt matter if cc requires 5 players, when one players starts to spam cc and sits in base , or goes to jungle and feeds the other team its over. Now THATS wasting my time. When someone wiht 0 hope starts ruining everyones morale by spamming the cc button and flames on chat. Theres no way to report them simply cuz S2 wont ban them, they should watch a15-30min replay to see the big picture but they wont.
    Dota1-2 will have the leavers and the afkers. Sooner or later tehse people end up on banlists and get the 'DC'status. Then these people will filter out and have there own community where they can leave, flame, spam and afk as much as they want, but atleast we dont have to meet them. In hon I end up with the same jackass 2hours later simply because theres no way to punish them.
    In other games the MM system was a privilege to play on and the punishments were hard to kee[ the community as good as possible. Hon's MM is nothing more then a rng generator: maybe i get the jackass that cant play or maybe i wont:)
    Sry for my bad english, its my second language.

  11. not sure who is the bigger retard

    you or maelk

  12. The fact that there was no option to concede in DOTA2 is one of my favorite things about it because when 1 asshole throws up the concede vote, not only does their own team flame them, but the entire other team gets a morale boost due of that one quitter. I might be for a concede option if it were hidden from the other team. I have no idea why that is made public. It just leads to /all chat flaming which is one of my least favorite aspects of any MOBA.

    My friend, who is pretty new to HoN (He's been playing for about 6 months) only really knows how to play Ra, Cthulhuphant and Midas. S2's all-round heroes. At 15 minutes, he is the one who throws up the concede vote if he has more than 1 death.

    When I gave him a beta key for DOTA2, at 15 minutes as Skeleton King, he said, this character sucks and can't tank like Ra, where's the concede button? I understand what they're talking about when they say "Concede options breed bad habits."

    When I was new to HoN the 4/5 concede option didn't exist yet. Coming from League of Legends, I thought it was asinine. It taught me to keep on trying and sometimes the team would make a comeback.

  13. I agree Nigma
    Look at all the DoTards coming to defend their queen.

    1. Conceding is not a 'breeding' any bad habits. Don't agree? Well then tell me why losing is positive reinforcement.

    2. Everyone is acting like they have never been stuck in that situation. You know the one where Antimage has been fed 7 kills before 10min. AND THEY ALL CLAIM TO BE THE PERSON SAYING WE CAN STILL WIN THIS!?!?!? Sorry but after that happens it is a surefire flame of the feeder/feeders and bitching/moaning about how fucked the game is.

    Grow up and realize that its actually a good thing, after all I'm pretty sure the ultimate goal of a game, even DotA, is to BE FUN. And waiting for games to end that are FUBAR from 15min in is NOT FUN. Dota2 is not a master DoTard race breeding machine, its a game and its supposed to be fun.

  14. I'll agree with you on the UNANIMOUS (hey I learned a new word today :D) concede vote. I played a HoN game before where my whole team has given up, was feeding a bit and was perma voting to concede, but I managed to farm it out with Maliken and Genocide them several times and we won in the end. This is probably what Maelk is referring to.

    I've been irritated by the same thing in the Dota 2 forums, the purists who just want they're old DotA, they give any new feature the finger because it makes the game more 'noob'... Anything you suggest gets the comment 'not a priority and shouldnt be considered right now'. It really is amazing how close minded the DotA community is. Hell, most of them even despise the new shop system and want the old 'click on different units for different shops'-system back.

    Bottom line is: Dota 2 is an excelent game, even in beta, and I look forward to all the new features, visuals etc. The community however is pathetic. They give a lot of support to DotA, guides, arts, whatever. But when it comes to Dota 2 they turn down anything that looks remotely new. But yeah that's the majority, Valve should just ignore them (even tho they would get pissed off at Valve for it), and do what's best for the game. It will be better in the long run

    See you in-game (hopefully) Nigma ^^... hope your nick is still Nigma

  15. Some people just take things too seriously. The one thing I hate most in HoN is when my teammates want to concede. I've seen too many "lost" games turn around to know better. And still I think the concede option is something good and needed - for when the rax are down, you're everfarmed, overplayed and one man short.

  16. While your point is completely valid, I fear it is futile to argue with any dota fanboy. They are like religious nuts, everything Icefrog or one of his underlings says, is dogma to them. If you dare to so much as touch upon subjects like this, and dare to question The Mighty DOTA, you will get smited by a legion of dotards. -_-

  17. Jesus christ these dotards are so fucking hilarious coming straight out of Icefrog bus after they played with his balls. Get this straight you parasites not everything HoN/LoL creates is bad and please learn that a unanimous or super-majority concede vote does not make bad habits or promote a defeatist attitude. These inane arguments are yet more illogical bullshit you cum buckets love to spew

  18. the only reason a concede vote is there is to avoid the disc-er label. As you mention, War3 Dota never tracked discs... HON does.

    If DOTA2 tracks discs, then it needs a concede vote. End of story.

  19. I think the game should automatically become "safe to leave" and count as a win for the enemy team after certain conditions are met. These conditions can be tweaked but could be one or all of the following:
    1. More than 50% of your base's buildings have been destroyed
    2. The enemy team outlevels yours by 15 levels total
    3. (enemy_raxes - your_raxes) >= 2

    Alternatively the concede option could become available after the above conditions are met.